Jacoby-Shermer debate, 1/10
[This is part 1 of Dr Jacoby's opening statement, refuting the existence of God.]
The debate between international Christian speaker Douglas Jacoby and agnostic and skeptic Michael Shermer took place Saturday June 23, the highlight of the 2007 International Apologetics Conference, sponsored by the Apologetics Research Society. The debate topic: Does God Exist?
Dr. Shermer is one of the three or four most famous atheist / agnostic scholars in the world, author of 12 books and President of the Skeptics Society. He has held dozens of debates, appeared on Oprah, 20/20, Dateline, Tom Snyder, Larry King Live and The History Channel. Dr. Jacoby, director of the Athens Institute of Ministry, has spoken in hundreds of cities in some 80 nations.
This exciting event was held before a packed house, with an overflow crowd watching close circuit monitors outside the venue. Kedron Jones (Board member of ARS) was moderator and affable host. Shermer and Jacoby both bring their best analytical skills to this debate. The interchange is lively, with both speakers willing to concede points made by their opponent. You will benefit greatly from weighing the arguments put forth. Douglas’ clear and incisive arguments for the existence of God are persuasive. He argues from cosmology (both its creation and its complexity). and the unmistakable fact that moral absolutes are part of reality. Shermer makes the case that religions are socially constructed, historically dependent, and that the faith you adhere to and the god you believe in depend largely on when in history and where in the world you were born.
The two-hour debate is lively, engaging and instructional. You can watch each speaker’s opening, rebuttal, rebuttal summary, and conclusion here at YouTube. For the entire debate in one DVD, however, including the 40+ minute Q&A session, please visit www.douglasjacoby.com. The Skeptics Society website is www.skeptic.com.
To post further comments, please visit Jacoby’s forum at www.jacobyblogs.com.
Duration : 0:7:1
Posted in docbates
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Just because we …
Just because we live in this universe that doesn’t mean that it is “fine tuned” or “created”. Any infinite number of universes freakishly different from our own likely came into existence, but we just happen to live in THIS one.
It is special, only to US…
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
there can be an …
there can be an evil, because it says so in your bible. there can be an evil because people do things that are considered generally as evil. evil is anything you want it to be. i can talk about pink unicorns, i can understand the concept of one horned horses, coloured pink. can you understand the concept of pink unicorns? how can you talk about pink unicorns when you deny their very existence?
to claim the concept of evil is only understandable through God is stupifying.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
uh huh. ad hominem.
uh huh. ad hominem.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
people who have the …
people who have the argument of man created god have no clue on religious and christian history, that argument is so immature and childish
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
You go, boy!
You go, boy!
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
*internal …
*internal inconsistencies
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
The fact that these …
The fact that these fellows call themselves the “Brights” is not only egotistical, but misrepresenting. The fathers of “New Atheism” are not philosophers and this is clearly seen in their work. Their arguments have been shredded to bits over and over and their worldview has not even been thought out carefully. They are pop-culture icons who reveal their internal consistencies at every turn in their life.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
And I must mention …
And I must mention one other thing. Why do you use the word evil, when you deny the very existence of objective moral values? How can there be evil an a matter-in-motion world where morality is subject to social preference? You said “…an evolution of principles that develop with the changing circumstances.” But this is not evil. There very affirmation of the concept of evil undermines your own presuppositions about the world.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I said that God’s …
I said that God’s existence does NOT necessitate a reason outside Himself. He is His own reason, so in that sense I agree. God is the greatest conceivable being because He has infinite characteristics (omniscience, omnipotence, love, justice). If you could imagine a greater being, then THAT being would be God.
I believe that we, as humans, are not able to know such answers as to why God exists. It’s like asking why the number 6 exists.
And God did not create evil, He ordained it.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
but your answer is …
but your answer is still poor. why does god’s purpose neccessitate a reason outside god? why can’t he be doing what he’s doing for his own reasons? you also say we know nothing is greater than god. how do we know this?
your answer is basically that god has no purpose, because that purpose would be outside god. nothing is greater than god, therefore, he has no purpose.
i say, he was invented by man, for man’s purpose. ask yourself why god created evil, and you’ll see what i mean.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
The question was …
The question was not about evil.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
that is the worst …
that is the worst non-answer ever. the question you need to ask yourself is why god created evil. when you see why god created evil, you will see that man created god, and not the other way around.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
the fact that there …
the fact that there is anything called apologetics let me know that religion is BS.
Go Brights!!!
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
thank you. i …
thank you. i really appreciated your answer and, to me, it made a lot of sense. thanks for taking the time to reply, take care.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Now why must He …
Now why must He exist? I think our minds are limited and unable to grasp such large concepts.
I think what is important is that we know our own reason for existence, and that is to enjoy God and give Him glory.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
That’s a great …
That’s a great question, however I don’t think anyone can truly answer it. But I can say this: If God exists necessarily and is a self-sufficient eternal Being then I don’t think that there is a “why” for his existence. If there was then there would be a reason outside God as to why He exists. This would, therefore, place something greater and external to God, but we know that nothing is greater than God; He is the absolute.
I think He exists because He must exists.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
hi, you seem like …
hi, you seem like you know what you’re talking about and i was wondering if you could help me and answer this off-topic question that i have.
first off, i believe that everything has purpose. with that said, my question is this: why does God exist, what is His purpose?
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Uh … you don’t …
Uh … you don’t seem to notice the difference between an assertion and an argument. Nothing you have said has yet to be substantiated.
Now, it is true that Israelites, throughout the years at various times, have committed idolatry and worshiped false gods, but that is not the topic of discussion. You claimed that Judaism originated out of a “polytheistic religious system”. I’m still waiting for the evidence.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Uh … you don’t …
Uh … you don’t seem to know anything about this subject, which makes this a pretty useless line of discussion. If it helps: The Israelites didn’t spontaneously become pagan when they worshiped the golden calf, they reverted back to their old pagan ways until Moses came down.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
This is an …
This is an assertion, without any evidence. The majority of OT scholars also believe the contrary. It is up to you to prove that Judaism was once polytheistic.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
No, sorry. There …
No, sorry. There were little regional and city gods and Yahweh was just one of them. Then he started telling his people to only worship him. Wilhelm Schmidt, whom your idea of God’s origin comes from, is only believed by the remotest fringe creationists - not reputable scholars.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Yes, the majority …
Yes, the majority of scholars rely on evidence, and most of them agree that the evidence does not point to a polytheistic Jewish origin.
However, all scholars have unfounded presuppositions—whether theological or not. You do, so do I, so does scholar X. These presuppositions will dictate one’s take on reality and guide the interpretation of evidence.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Calling them ” …
Calling them “so-called” doesn’t change the fact that the majority of biblical scholars rely on actual historical evidence, not unfounded theological presuppositions. People don’t like to hear the story past their childhood understanding of the story of God, it seems. Just another story.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
You can beg the …
You can beg the question all you want, but it doesn’t help your case. You are assuming what you should be proving. There have been many so-called scholars who have had many different theories about the rise of Judaism, however, your theory is in the minority.
January 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
All peoples came …
All peoples came out of a polytheistic religious system, even the Jewish peoples. Their history didn’t begin when they began ignoring or denying all of the other gods. The Christian god’s development is detailed in Karen Armstrong’s “A History of God.”
And the characteristics I’m talking about that link the Bible with fairy tales don’t include ducks and other real things, but do include acts of magic and talking animals and plants.